Hammon: Mr. Beaulieu, can you tell me when and where you were born?

Beaulieu: I was born in 1939 in Palmer, Mass.

AH: What type of town is that?

NB: Oh, it was a very small town, a suburb of Springfield, Mass, very rural, very.

AH: Can you tell me a little bit about your early life, the setting of your early life?

NB: Oh, I was one of three children. We lived in a small neighborhood surrounded by many, many relatives. We had one movie theatre, many churches, kind of in little valley, uh kind of shut off from the rest of the world. As a child, I remember playing mostly with relatives [unintelligible]. We were all around the same age.

AH: And your own siblings, were they brothers, sisters?

NB: I had two brothers who were both older, one four years older than I, one ten years older than I.

AH: Um, can you tell me a little bit about your parents?

NB: Both my parents worked, uh, in a woolen mill. My father was a weaver, and um, my mother was actually a spinner. And, um, I also lived with my grandmother, at the time, whose husband built the house that we lived in, that I grew up in. They would get up and walk to work everyday. They walked about two miles to the mills. It was a mill town, a woolen mill town.

AH: Um, where did you go to school?

NB: I went to school in [unknown]. In an elementary school which was on Main Street in the town. It was called South Main Street School, grades one through five. Then grade six was in a small rural two building house. Um, then I went to Munson High School, grades nine through twelve.

AH: And after high school?

NB: After high school, I went to, um, Springfield College, graduated in 1961 with a Bachelor of Science degree in Education. Then got my Master's degree from the University of Connecticut in guidance in 1965 and started teaching in 1961.

AH: And where did you teach?

NB: I taught in the South Windsor Public School System for thirty seven and a half years and retired last January, as a physical education teacher and cross-country coach and basketball coach and athletic coordinator.

AH: And, can you just tell me your parents' names?

NB: My mother's name is Melvina. Her maiden name was Proulx. And my father's name was Harold Beaulieu.

AH: Did anyone in your family serve in World War II, as in the Armed Forces?

NB: Not in my immediate family, no.

AH: But you did mention you were close to your extended family.

NB: Right, and many of my extended family served. I had an uncle who served in the navy and a, uh, uh, and another one who served in the army and another, two uncles who served in the navy and a cousin who served in the navy as well.

AH: Now, these uncles, were you close to them?

NB: Um, yes.

AH: When they came back? You were very young when they went away?

NB: Yes, but I remember one of my mother's brothers who served in the Navy as a medic. I believe he was a medic. I remember he brought back a lot of his medical equipment and stuff. He used to store it in my attic.

AH: Oh. Now, uh, did any of these uncles or the cousin, have children that you played with at the time?

NB: Yes, yes.

AH: And do you remember anything about how they felt about their fathers being away?

NB: Uh, I know we used to talk about them getting letters from their fathers. I know one of them served in the, in the European conflict. I remember because we'd often play and he because his father was in, you know, was in the service, he was always, got to be the good guy and we were always the bad guys. (Laughs.)

AH: Um, what about Pearl Harbor, that's officially thought of as the beginning of American involvement?

NB: Yes, I was only two, but I remember it being, when I was four and five, Pearl Harbor was the, um, sort of like um, you know a rallying cry, sort of like Remember the Alamo kind of thing. It was just like, um, how could anyone possibly do that. Because the propaganda I'm sure at the time was that this was a rallying point for most Americans. We would play war games, I can remember, and uh, we were very upset with Tojo and if you were one of the popular kids you got to play an American and if you were one of the less popular kids you were either Tojo or Mussolini or Hitler or one of the bad guys.

AH: So the popularity actually came over into the enemy, the unpopular kids had to be the enemy?

NB: Absolutely, or not necessarily the unpopular ones but the younger ones, if there were older siblings in the family then they were the big guys and we were the bad guys.

AH: So did you because you were the youngest have to play the bad guys?

NB: I was always Tojo or Mussolini or somebody, so I always got beat up on a lot.

AH: Now, you've mentioned some of the major people, Hitler and Mussolini and Tojo, did you have perceptions about the Germans and the Italians and the Japanese?

NB: Yeah, just that, not so much, not so much as, um, a nation of people but, you know, Hitler certainly was the bad guy and the Germans were the bad people. And, I can remember seeing films, you know, uh, we went to the theatre. They would have -- I can remember the Eyes of the World and they would show clips of what was going on in the war, I can remember some of that. It wasn't so much that I would identify Italians with Mussolini but, um, I don't think that happened so much, but he certainly was one of the bad guys.

AH: Mussolini, himself?

NB: Right.

AH: And, Eyes on the World?

NB: It was... I can remember when we went to the movies they would have, they would show news clips and they would flash on the screen before. At that time, I think we had just one small, little theatre and we would get most of the... It was like a newsreel, it was like a newsreel. I don't remember who the guy was. It could have been Edward R. Murrow or it could have been Walter Winchill, but it would flash. It would give like headlines on what was going on overseas in the war. So this had to be 1943, 1944, probably, and even more 1945 and 46.

AH: And did those headlines, um, influence how you perceived how the war was going?

NB: Absolutely, absolutely. And I think...not only did they do war things but they would do sports things and sporting. It was like the news. It was like a five-minute news clip. Um, I can remember this big eye would come on and the eyes of the world are on you and they would flash to England or Japan or wherever. My memory is not specific but I remember.

AH: Um, you mentioned propaganda, as you perceived it now as propaganda, at the time?

NB: I think it was--Well, I mean at the time it was how could these people be doing, you know, this. I'm thinking I'm three or I'm four or I'm five. But I can remember we had stories we heard of the war in the newspapers that my parents were talking about was not, this was a bad time for our country. I'm sure that we, we identified with the Nazis as being bad and more the Japanese people as being bad. Its hard to relate to that now but I'm thinking when we played games we would always try to defeat the Japanese, or the Germans, or they were the bad people, you know, so.

AH: Um, and your... so did your parents talk a lot about the world war, do you remember family conversations about it?

NB: I remember... yeah, I think they probably did. I don't remember anything specific. But I know that we would have blackouts, you know, where we would have to shut off all the lights and cover the windows. And we would have air raid drills when we were in first or second grade. We would have drills where we would have to go out into the hallways and sit down and cover up and um. I would guess that they probably did, it was probably the focal point of everybody's conversation at that time.

AH: And how did you feel during, like, the blackouts and?

NB: I can remember being scared but I also remember it being such a... like an adventure kind of thing. It being like... because we would often play that. We would make siren sounds and we would have an air raid. As kids, we would play that kind of thing. So, I think it was...I don't know how much I was afraid but I was, you know, it was something that we had to do and it was kind of an adventure, as I remember.

AH: So, your fear was... Your play helped you deal with any sort of fear because you got to fight it out?

NB: Yeah, because I don't think we ever had any fear that we were going to be attacked but we had to have these. I remember, I think, this is very vague but I think my father may have been one of those people who had to go out and watch the skies or something like that. I forget what they even called them, air raid captains or something like that, I'm not even sure. That's vague in my mind but that was a while ago.

AH: Now you mentioned the image of war in the newsreels, do you remember anything, any other places you might have heard about the war like on your radio program?

NB: Yeah, we would listen to... I can remember, there were the radio as we had no television and the radio was... We would listen to our shows so there were specific shows that we would listen to but there would always be newscasts coming over the shows as well.

AH: What sort of shows did you listen to?

NB: Well, Saturday night we would listen to Jack Benny, Charlie McCarthy and Mortimer Snerd. We'd listen to GangBusters, and Mr. Keene, Stella Dallas. These were great. (Laughter). Radio shows wereWe had specific shows that we listened to. I think The Shadow was on Sunday night at 5 o'clock and um Boston Blackie, one of the great shows. (Laughter). You know, they don't have shows like that on the radio anymore. But, uh, and we would listen toand like, Saturday night was a ritual. And I can remember, I think there was a show before Jack Benny would come on and then there would be another show and oh the Great Gildersleeve, the Life of Riley which was with William Bendix, all the shows that we would listen to on the radio. They would have periodic interruptions with news bulletins about the war, that I can remember.

AH: What about, like fictional accounts of the war? You've talked about news but was it a subject for the fiction stories like for the Shadow, did the Shadow deal with the war or...?

NB: Wow, good question. Um I don't know, I don't know. I guess that some of them probably did but I just remember listening to some of those shows and being afraid and hiding under the covers because of Inner Sanctum. They had a squeaky door and the Shadow knows but I don't remember if they were specific about the war. I'm sure that some of them were but I don't remember that.

AH: What about any of the movies that you saw?

NB: Oh the movies were. I can remember the movies were. A lot of them were about the war and a lot of them were about I can remember The Abbott and Costello would do a war, I am trying to think what they call them, they would do advertisement to get support for the war, you know. And they would talk about the women and how the women were working in factories and stuff in places, that men were overseas. Because Abbott and Costello were my favorite characters and I remember them talking about... but they had a lot of shows about the army and stuff and they were to raise money for the war effort.

AH: Your mother worked in a factory. Did she work in the factory before the war, do you know? Or did she go..

NB: Um, I'm guessing that she did. I think... I'm guessing that they did. and They would... It was a woolen mill and I'm sure they made... I'm sure they made uniforms and stuff for the war effort at that time. Yeah. I don't... We lived with my grandmother, so I'm sure that my grandmother took care of us when we were little. I don't remember at what age but I'm just assuming that she she did.

AH: So you're guessing that she worked before the war or she went in on defense?

NB: Yeah, I think that she was... had been there before cause it was a booming town. There were three woolen mills in the town and I'm sure she was... I'm sure she worked there probably since she was little.

AH: Do you know anybody else who might have started work just because of the war? I know it's hard because you were so young.

NB: I don't know

AH: Um, Did your family have a victory garden or participate in any of the...

NB: Yes, we did have a victory garden. Wow, you're stirring up memories that I'd never even thought of. We had a huge victory garden. That's what we called it. And we also raised chickens and pigs and stuff.

AH: Did you feel like you were participating in the war efforts by doing these things?

NB: Yeah, I think... Gee, I think we probably did. I think that.. I remember we would... It was sort of... Because we lived in a neighborhood we were all relatives, we all kind of like pitched in and... Yeah, I think we probably did.

AH: And you yourself? Do you remember?

NB: Yeah I used to do a lot of work in the garden. My father made sure of that (laughter). But, yeah we all had our chores to do. And we did, we had a huge garden we grew lots of corn and all kinds of vegetables.

AH: Do remember anything about the rationing during the war? Do you remember anybody either complaining about it or mentioning it?

NB: Yeah, I remember something about lard. We had to use lard instead of butter and stuff, so maybe there was a shortage of those kinds of products. I'm... I don't remember that too much but I remember we did had to cut back on stuff. We had to ration, we used to use kerosene to heat the stove, I remember we had to ration that.

AH: What about scrap drives? Did you ever participate in those?

NB: Yes, we did. God Amy, you are bringing up some memories. Yeah, we had huge scrap drives and we would go... My god, I can remember one time my brother almost broke his leg. He stepped into a rusty old barrel and cut his leg. The doctor butchered him to put him back together again. But that's what we were doing, we were collecting scrap iron to bring and newspaper and stuff. And people would come by and collect. Wow.

AH: Okay, you had a few relatives, your uncles and your cousin, who went off to war. Did... Your cousins, their children, corresponded with them but you never directly corresponded with them?

NB: No, um I know my parents, my mother's brother was in the war and I know she did, she corresponded with him, but I never did.

AH: And do you remember when they came back?

NB: I remember my uncle when he came back he lived with us for a while. He lived upstairs and brought back a lot of medical stuff and brought back some war souvenirs. I remember he brought back a swastika that and I often wonder where that went, because I know we had it upstairs in our attic. After he brought back old war helmets that we used to play with and he used to let us play with and they were pretty heavy.

AH: So they enhanced your game?

NB: Absolutely, no question if you had one of those you were like the kid on the block. I very seldom got to wear one because I was one of the youngest kids on the block.

AH: Do you remember any feelings when they came back? Were you glad to see them?

NB: Yeah, Um I remember my uncle came back we had a celebration he was... And I remember... I remember we had this big block victory dance party during the.. when the war was over. I remember very little about it but, I remember we had this huge party. It was a small town but when a lot of the people came back. My uncle, we especially celebrated with him when he came back.

AH: So that was like a family celebration?

NB: Yeah, but I do remember vaguely a big huge block party where everybody in the town was involved. This was at the end of the war.

AH: And this was a planned thing?

NB: Yeah

AH: Um, do you remember anything about... Hearing anything about the end of the war?

NB: Other than the huge celebration and horns going off. I probably was... in 1945 so I mean I must have been in 1^st grade. Its vague, it's very vague.

AH: Um, what about... Do you remember anything about the atomic bomb? Any perceptions about it? Anybody talking about it?

NB: Um, no. Other than that we'd play. I remember playing we would drop the bombs and we were going to... That is very vague too. I don 't remember too much about that.

AH: And when you played war games did you focus more on the war in Europe or the war in Japan?

NB: Japan, I think more on the war in Japan. I think only because of Pearl Harbor. You know because we would play games centered around Pearl Harbor and the Japanese were slanty-eyed people at that time. And it was easy to identify them as being bad as opposed to... although Hitler was certainly bad. But I don't think we knew. We certainly didn't know, at that time, what was going on with Hitler and the Jews and Christians.

AH: So with the Japanese it was easier to identify them because they were different? Did you have any oriental people or Asian Americans in your town?

NB: No I don't think... I don't think there was any. No, I don't remember seeing any black people, or Asian people until, maybe I went to college. I don't even think there are any in the town, there are very few now probably, I don't know. It's a very white Anglo-Saxon town. A WASPY kind of town. That's one of the reasons I got the hell out of there when I did (laughter).

AH: Now, you mentioned WASPY, um what's your religion?

NB: I'm ah, French catholic. I was raised catholic and both my parents were of French extraction. They both were catholic.

AH: And did that... Did church enter into your life during the war in any way? Do you remember anything about church and the war?

NB: I was praying for the war to end. I don't remember anything specific.

AH: How would assess your experience during the war? Did it have a big impact on you, very little impact?

NB: You mean as to how I think and believe now?

AH: Then and now.

NB: I don't think it had much of an impact on me, except we could play games, but I don't think it had too much of an impact. I don't know how to answer that specifically. I mean I didn't develop... At the time, I'm sure I had lots of prejudices against Japanese people and Nazis especially, not so much Germans, but Nazis. But only as a kid. That's how we played; that's how we identified who we were.

AH: What about patriotism?

NB: That was the word I was trying to think of before. I think a lot of the things were for patriotism. The eyes on the world thing that I mentioned in the movies was a patriotic thing. You know. It was very in to be patriotic in the time, at the time.

AH: And do you think that carried over?

NB: Yeah, I think that as a kid I always stood up for the playing of the national anthem. I always sang and took my hat off, still do. I think that had a lot to do with my patriotism. Although I never served in the war myself. I never went into the armed services myself.

AH: How do you think today's generation, people of my generation, your children's generation, understand the war? Do you think they have a good whole knowledge of it?

NB: Of the Second World War?

AH: Yeah.

NB: Hmm. I know being a teacher, as a teacher, I don't think there is as much patriotism in the younger generation as there was then. I don't think they lived... I don't think they lived through that time and it's har't take their hats off. It's just not the same. I don't think'I don't know if it's any less patriotic, I just think the expression of the patriotism is not the same.

AH: And you think that this might be related to...That your feelings toward this might somehow be related to your early childhood experience with the war?

NB: I think probably. I grew up during the war and the wars that are now; although I think Desert Storm was a rallying point for patriotism in America, there are so many other dissentions. Kids today are much more knowledgeable and information has gotten to them a lot quicker. We would have to wait until Saturday afternoon for a once a week broadcast, where now it's instantaneous.

AH: Overall, is there anything else that you would like to add to the interview? Is there anything you think I've missed?

NB: Actually, you've stirred up some memories that I haven't had in a long time. Some of your questions are very poignant. Um. Now as an adult, and knowing what happened during the War, that I didn't know when I was a little kid.

AH: Like?

NB: Your views change about things. About the war and about Hitler for instance, and killing of the Jews. We didn't know about this. It was not ever discussed until I was maybe in high school that I even knew that this kind of thing happened. Whether that came across that to the adult generation at that time I don't know. I'm assuming that it probably did. And I didn't know at time that there were a lot of Japanese Americans who were interned on the West Coast because of, just because they were Japanese. Those kinds of things, a lot of the atrocities that went on, even from our part, we didn't know about at that time. So, yeah, I think my views have changed tremendously.

AH: Thank you very much.

NB: Your welcome. It was interesting.

(Tape stops, restarts)

NB: There was this war game and there were cowboys. And if you were a cowboy you were a good guy. You could be the Lone Ranger or you could be Tom Mix, you could be Gene Autry. But the bad guys were always Japanese cowboys, you know, or Japanese indians and stuff, you know. (Laughter). Or if you were Tarzan and you were saving somebody, you were always saving them from the Japanese or from the Germans and stuff. So we would make these little... We would go into the woods and make these little bamboo shoots and spit little black berries. And we would shoot them through there and when they stuck on you they stained your clothes, you know, almost like you got hit. And like you're wearing a white blouse and if you got hit with the berries you couldn't get that thing off for to save your soul. But all of our games were, even when we built. We built motorcycle tracts and we had a motorcycle club in our town. Everything we did, all the games we played had some connotation to the war. I can remember we did a lot of cowboy and Indian stuff. It was funny how if you were a cowboy you were a good guy and if you were an Indian you were a Jap.

AH: So this continued long after the war had ended?

NB: Oh certainly, it went through, right through grammar school. And I can remember we were in school, we were in grammar school, we had drills. Even after the war, we would have air raid drills. And the siren would go all over the town and we had to duck and cover and go down into the basement and pull down all the blinds.

AH: Now, when the war ended, now by history, you would say the Cold War started. When World War II ended, that's kind of almost the beginning of the Cold War. And you didn't transfer some of that enmity to the Russians?

NB: No not until later. All through grammar school and even sometimes in fifth and sixth grade it was always... The Russians came into the picture later, maybe high school and then college. I remember I wanted to join the service. I was in college I wanted to join the ROTC program. And I went down to take the physical and I failed the physical because I didn't have any natural teeth. To join the ROTC, you had to have at least four natural upper and four lower, and I didn't have any so they kicked me out. So, I never got involved in the service.

AH: And your motivation for joining that was from your war experiences?

NB: Uh, well I figured at that time I was young, I was going to get drafted anyway. So if I was going to go in, I might as well go in as an officer. But a lot of the people who did...A lot of the kids I can remember, four or five of my buddies in college who went into the ROTC program were killed in the Korean War or in the Vietnam war. So I'm glad I didn't go that route, but I got married and had children and became a teacher and was hard to draft.

AH: Thank you again.